Immorality of Socialism and Morality of Capitalism

Discuss Social and Political issues that are affecting you. Bash the Politicians!
User avatar
Ivan Diederhoff
Duchess
 
Posts: 2988
Joined: Sun May 18, 2008 4:43 am
Location: Adding Fred75 to the ACLU member list!

Postby Ivan Diederhoff on Fri Oct 10, 2008 4:39 pm

Fred75 wrote:
coolman wrote:
Fred75 wrote:I would like to add that's part of why Liberals hate religion.
Religion teaches morals and right from wrong.

It looks down on the selfish and self centered (THE LIBERAL)

So in order for you to ease the pain of your selfishness and make up for the lack of INDIVIDUAL CHARITY that the church teaches.... you supplant church with state.

You then get to go on being immoral but don't have to worry because your indiscretions are now cleaned up by others.


1. I don't hate religion and believe in God.

2. I think it is more selfish to leave the families that need help out in the cold than it is to help them to "relieve our guilt".

3. I know the difference between right and wrong -- and sometimes CHOOSE to do wrong, but generally do right, unless m.asturbation and pornography is really wrong, cuz I do that all the time.


Excellent.
Then teach a man to fish. Don't just hand him one.
Capiche?


Hey Fred, let the republicans free up some money for teachers, OK? I've already done my free education here! :lol:
Welcoming Fred75 to the wonderful world of truth and social justice of the MODERN LIBERAL

User avatar
Ivan Diederhoff
Duchess
 
Posts: 2988
Joined: Sun May 18, 2008 4:43 am
Location: Adding Fred75 to the ACLU member list!

Postby Ivan Diederhoff on Fri Oct 10, 2008 4:43 pm

Fred75 wrote:Face it guys!
You can't win this argument unless you ADVOCATE that one need not grow up to be a responsible self sufficient adult!


Fred, your linking of Jeffrey Dahmer to Speshul Ed's post in Members has taken the possibility of winning anything, except perhaps a TAXPAYER PAID vacation in the mental ward, away from you today!
Welcoming Fred75 to the wonderful world of truth and social justice of the MODERN LIBERAL

User avatar
myron myron
Heroine
 
Posts: 6462
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:43 am

Postby myron myron on Sat Oct 11, 2008 12:21 am

mogadishu wrote:myron - sorry if this sounds slow - but why would a "trader" be an archetype for a moral person? Maybe she's re-affirming work ethhic, but there again the argument must be more complicated than that.

In context, the word "trader" is not meant to be interpreted literally:

"The symbol of all relationships among such men, the moral symbol of respect for human beings, is the trader. We, who live by values, not by loot, are traders, both in matter and in spirit. A trader is a man who earns what he gets and does not give or take the undeserved. A trader does not ask to be paid for his failures, nor does he ask to be loved for his flaws. A trader does not squander his body as fodder or his soul as alms. Just as he does not give his work except in trade for material values, so he does not give the values of his spirit–his love, his friendship, his esteem–except in payment and in trade for human virtues, in payment for his own selfish pleasure, which he receives from men he can respect. The mystic parasites who have, throughout the ages, reviled the traders and held them in contempt, while honoring the beggars and the looters, have known the secret motive of their sneers: a trader is the entity they dread–a man of justice."

Also note that the excerpts I quoted are a small part of the lengthy John Galt speech. Here is a longer excerpt (though still only an excerpt), which may address your point: http://colveyco.com/gallery-annex/reading/atlas.html

As I stated in the opening post, I do not agree with all aspects of Rand's Objectivist philosophy. My disagreement includes but is not limited to her ardent atheism and her characterization of selfishness as a virtue in interpersonal affairs (she wrote a book called The Virtue of Selfishness).

But I do agree with Rand's critique of socialism/collectivism and her defense of capitalism in terms of political economics.


Cambridge
Master Wizard
 
Posts: 1867
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2008 4:07 am

Postby Cambridge on Sat Oct 11, 2008 6:34 am

Galt’s soliloquy is essentially a monologue on meritocracy. Meritocracy assumes equality of the “runners in the race.” We have two kinds of equality: distributive equality and proportional equality. Distributive equality is simply giving everybody the same candy bar; proportion equality is taking into account the relative disproportion of the racers at the start. If we’re talking about marketing handouts on the street corner, then distributative equality is the order of the day. However, if we are talking about how to equitably distribute societal benefits on an equitable level, then we’d better rethink the formula.

Let’s take education for example. The simpleton would say, give the opportunity to the highest achiever on the SAT, LSAT, GRE, MCAT or other Educational Testing Service (ETS) exam. But let’s say the exam is given in Spanish or the language of the Ibo tribesmen in Western Africa. Any question that the average Anglo American would cry foul? They would say that it was unfair to give us tests that excluded our language. Proportional equality. They were at a disadvantage because they didn’t speak the language in which the test was given.

So we recognize that there can be inequality in any scheme of meritocracy. But it can be even more complex than this. Forget language. Suppose the inequity is in the fact that one race has been the slaves of another race, and they have never been afforded the opportunity to catch up. In fact, in many instances if any of them did learn to read and write they would be hung from the nearest tree. And this went on for hundreds of years, until John Galt comes along and argues that all those people whom his forefathers held as slaves are holding him back. That socialism denies him the right to assume dominance over victims of past discrimination. Some right, huh?

There are all kinds of ways of gaining subjugation over others. Meritocracy is merely a formula for perpetuating the inequity. Galt’s thesis was just the last gasp of someone who didn’t get it.

Ayn Rand was a reactionary Russian, dime-store author, who saw greats like George Orwell and Aldous Huxley gaining notoriety by publishing extreme political novels. So she tried her best at the extreme right-wing novel. However, as Herbert Marcuse effectively showed, there is nothing novel in that which has already gone into the past.

User avatar
myron myron
Heroine
 
Posts: 6462
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:43 am

Postby myron myron on Sat Oct 11, 2008 1:08 pm

Cambridge wrote:However, as Herbert Marcuse effectively showed, there is nothing novel in that which has already gone into the past.

Given that Herbert Marcuse was a German Marxist, proponent of a failed ideology that has been relegated to the dustbin of history, he is hardly a credible authority to refute Ayn Rand.


User avatar
mogadishu
Princess
 
Posts: 3624
Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2005 6:19 pm

Postby mogadishu on Sat Oct 11, 2008 2:02 pm

I am unable to to engage with this article as I don't understand the basic premise. Why should the trader be an archetype for morality?
:color: Jesus loves you but I'm his favorite
:color:

Like a bridge over troubled water
I will lay me down

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=DXF5lVpN1ys

Image

User avatar
myron myron
Heroine
 
Posts: 6462
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:43 am

Postby myron myron on Sat Oct 11, 2008 2:41 pm

mogadishu wrote:I am unable to to engage with this article as I don't understand the basic premise. Why should the trader be an archetype for morality?

Because "traders" (in the figurative sense Rand is using the word) "live by values, not by loot . . . both in matter and in spirit," and because "a trader is a man who earns what he gets and does not give or take the undeserved."


User avatar
mogadishu
Princess
 
Posts: 3624
Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2005 6:19 pm

Postby mogadishu on Sat Oct 11, 2008 2:58 pm

But neither of those statements are necessarily true. Did I miss something?
:color: Jesus loves you but I'm his favorite
:color:

Like a bridge over troubled water
I will lay me down

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=DXF5lVpN1ys

Image

User avatar
myron myron
Heroine
 
Posts: 6462
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:43 am

Postby myron myron on Sat Oct 11, 2008 3:27 pm

Both statements are necessarily true because they constitute Rand's definition of "trader" as she intends the word to be interpreted in the context of her Objectivist philosophy.

It seems to me that you are unduly focusing on the word "trader" as conventionally defined.

You can substitute any other word or symbol (e.g., "A") for the word "trader" and define it the same way.

User avatar
franfran
Princess
 
Posts: 3912
Joined: Wed Jun 11, 2008 8:18 am
Location: Sydney, Australia

Postby franfran on Sat Oct 11, 2008 11:51 pm

Given Ayn Rand's background, I would say that she would have had a bit of "an axe to grind" as regards the subjects of Socialism and Communism. I can't see that she would be presenting an objective unbiased view.

Clicky
"Freedom without socialism is privilege and injustice, socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality." (Mikhail Bakunin 1814 - 1876)

:girl:

User avatar
franfran
Princess
 
Posts: 3912
Joined: Wed Jun 11, 2008 8:18 am
Location: Sydney, Australia

Postby franfran on Sat Oct 11, 2008 11:54 pm

And another thing - "Atlas Shrugged" was written between 1945 and 1957. A lot of things have changed since then....
"Freedom without socialism is privilege and injustice, socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality." (Mikhail Bakunin 1814 - 1876)

:girl:

Cambridge
Master Wizard
 
Posts: 1867
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2008 4:07 am

Postby Cambridge on Sun Oct 12, 2008 3:38 am

myron myron wrote:
Cambridge wrote:However, as Herbert Marcuse effectively showed, there is nothing novel in that which has already gone into the past.

Given that Herbert Marcuse was a German Marxist, proponent of a failed ideology that has been relegated to the dustbin of history, he is hardly a credible authority to refute Ayn Rand.



Herbert Marcuse was never a Marxist. Indeed, he was on the same level, if not higher, than Marx. Marcuse was a Hegelian. Had you paid closer attention in your classes at U. Penn. you would know that.

And why was it you were never accepted into a law school?

User avatar
myron myron
Heroine
 
Posts: 6462
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:43 am

Postby myron myron on Sun Oct 12, 2008 6:48 am

franfran wrote:And another thing - "Atlas Shrugged" was written between 1945 and 1957. A lot of things have changed since then....

Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels published The Communist Manifesto in 1848 and Das Kapital in 1867.

A lot of things have changed since then....


User avatar
franfran
Princess
 
Posts: 3912
Joined: Wed Jun 11, 2008 8:18 am
Location: Sydney, Australia

Postby franfran on Sun Oct 12, 2008 11:59 am

myron myron wrote:
franfran wrote:And another thing - "Atlas Shrugged" was written between 1945 and 1957. A lot of things have changed since then....

Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels published The Communist Manifesto in 1848 and Das Kapital in 1867.

A lot of things have changed since then....



Which is why some parts of Marx's works are relevant today and others are not.
"Freedom without socialism is privilege and injustice, socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality." (Mikhail Bakunin 1814 - 1876)

:girl:

User avatar
mogadishu
Princess
 
Posts: 3624
Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2005 6:19 pm

Postby mogadishu on Sun Oct 12, 2008 2:21 pm

myron myron wrote:Both statements are necessarily true because they constitute Rand's definition of "trader" as she intends the word to be interpreted in the context of her Objectivist philosophy.

It seems to me that you are unduly focusing on the word "trader" as conventionally defined.

You can substitute any other word or symbol (e.g., "A") for the word "trader" and define it the same way.


I'm sorry - I don't know enough about Objectivist philosophy to comment on that specifically. But *if* fairness is implicit in her definition of a trader, surely her argument is circular?
:color: Jesus loves you but I'm his favorite
:color:

Like a bridge over troubled water
I will lay me down

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=DXF5lVpN1ys

Image

PreviousNext

Return to Politics And Social Issues

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests