Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 11:26 am Post subject: Re: Muslims
KiltyCol2 wrote:
What's the deal with these groups that want to attack us for no apparent reason?
Is there any way of making these people integrate with us and accept that some of us are different? For instance I like to wear women's clothes, skirts, panties heels etc. I know if I was living in their land they would kill me as they look down on women but I wonder if all of us can live together in peace?
KiltyCol
I see what you mean cause other nations are really passive and simply embrace difference.
And by the way the rape/donestic violence/abuse stats in other nations certainly dont suggest that women are totally respected.
I wish people would pick holes in thier own backyards (of which there are many) before slagging off an entire group of people.
The crime figures, underage pregnancy/drinking, drug taking, rape, murder.............are pretty horrendous in Britain and even worse in USA.
We really arn't a superior race by any stretch of the imagination. Arrongant maybe (as your post suggests).
They dont want to integrate and they prove this by having their own schools, churches, shops, areas of living and by their refusal to teach their kids who are born in this country the English way of life
I think you'll find that the the majority of the british public didnt want to integrate.
It we were more welcoming as a nation and hadnt spent many years bullying and abusing them life here would probably be much more integrated.
Why would they want to attend british schools to be treated that way.
I think that view may be a wee bit jaundiced. Take the experience of the US and your first paragraph could easily be taken as talking about the Irish or Italian immigrants of the late-1800s and early 1900s.
Quote:
They dont want to integrate and they prove this by having their own schools, churches, shops, areas of living and by their refusal to teach their kids who are born in this country the English way of life
But I do agree with the rest of your post:
Quote:
It we were more welcoming as a nation and hadnt spent many years bullying and abusing them life here would probably be much more integrated.
Why would they want to attend british schools to be treated that way.
In the US today Whites are continually harping about how the African Americans “don’t want to integrate…they just want to keep to themselves.” While the reluctance of Blacks to join may be apparent, the “pushing out” by Whites is so much more subtle. If a White couple invited a Black couple to a neighborhood party and then met them at the door and said, “Yes, we invited you, but we never thought you would come,” would you want to socialize with them after that? That’s what’s going on.
Joined: 16 Nov 2007 Posts: 751 Location: Leicester
Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 7:47 am Post subject:
Agreed. But there is no reason why they cant stay within a group but still use the English way of life. I agree that a lot of their refusal to integrate is born of suspicion since 9/11 and also becasue of peoples attitudes in the 60ies and 70ies. But they dont make it any easier on themselves do they?
[quote="Polgara69"]Agreed. But there is no reason why they cant stay within a group but still use the English way of life. I agree that a lot of their refusal to integrate is born of suspicion since 9/11 and also becasue of peoples attitudes in the 60ies and 70ies. [b]But they dont make it any easier on themselves do they?[/quote][/b]
I think you need to explain yourself further. What do you mean they dont help themselves?
I agree 9/11 caused some controversay - if you remember some news reports at the time muslims were attacked in the street for simply being muslims. (not that that hasnt histrically been the case anyway for many years before 9/11)
Prior to 9/11 however white British people (not all of course) have not generally made them welcome.
And whats an English way of life? What do they do that pisses you off and how do you think they should behave?
Joined: 16 Nov 2007 Posts: 751 Location: Leicester
Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 8:25 pm Post subject:
They dont make it easier on themselves by going out of their way to not integrate. As I said before, they have had good reason to be wary but to send their kids to muslim schools instead of English schools is one example. Not teaching their children English as a first language. They use their religious views as a way of keeping themselves to themselves. And they scream rascism for the silliest things. (Some serious I know which need to taken seriously) but stupid things too like a woman in an certain area in Leicester who was told to take her collection of pottery pigs out of the window because it was offensive. She refused and was duly arrested and the offending piggies were confiscated and never returned. Mental. Things like this make it hard for us accept them into the community and hard for them to be accepted.
And please dont use the words 'pisses me off'. I never said they piss me off and I wouldnt.
They dont make it easier on themselves by going out of their way to not integrate. As I said before, they have had good reason to be wary but to send their kids to muslim schools instead of English schools is one example. Not teaching their children English as a first language. They use their religious views as a way of keeping themselves to themselves. And they scream rascism for the silliest things. (Some serious I know which need to taken seriously) but stupid things too like a woman in an certain area in Leicester who was told to take her collection of pottery pigs out of the window because it was offensive. She refused and was duly arrested and the offending piggies were confiscated and never returned. Mental. Things like this make it hard for us accept them into the community and hard for them to be accepted.
And please dont use the words 'pisses me off'. I never said they piss me off and I wouldnt.
Ah, but polgara I know you to be more conciliatory than that. Schools, language, religion? As I said, the Irish and Italians did the same things as that in the US when they were newcomers.
Quote:
“They use their religious views as a way of keeping themselves to themselves.”
That suggests intentional or manipulative conduct and I don’t see one shred of evidence that they are “using” anything of the sort. You might be imposing a bit of defensiveness onto them, possibly??? Your one example (about the ceramic pigs) does not a case make for a whole people. You just can’t generalize from specifics.
They dont make it easier on themselves by going out of their way to not integrate. As I said before, they have had good reason to be wary but to send their kids to muslim schools instead of English schools is one example. Not teaching their children English as a first language. They use their religious views as a way of keeping themselves to themselves. And they scream rascism for the silliest things. (Some serious I know which need to taken seriously) but stupid things too like a woman in an certain area in Leicester who was told to take her collection of pottery pigs out of the window because it was offensive. She refused and was duly arrested and the offending piggies were confiscated and never returned. Mental. Things like this make it hard for us accept them into the community and hard for them to be accepted.
And please dont use the words 'pisses me off'. I never said they piss me off and I wouldnt.
Do you know any muslims? Have you spent any time in thier community? Do you know how it feels to be muslim in this country? They segregate because that's thier community. They're doing nothing dis-similar to brits in Spain (who very rarely learn the language or befriend local people). Its thier way of life. What's the problem with that. They dont 'use' thier religeous views anymore than a practicing catholic might (and im not talking about media hype im talking about your average person going about thier life).
I still believe that we are as much to blame (if thats the right word) for any segregation thats occurred over the years.
Last edited by noodles on Tue May 13, 2008 8:11 am; edited 1 time in total
Joined: 16 Nov 2007 Posts: 751 Location: Leicester
Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 11:28 am Post subject:
Ok this is going to go on for some time isnt it. I wrote that late at night when I was ready to settle down with a dvd I bought (which was a major disappointment I have to say!)
Ok the pigs was just one in thousands of examples I could have used but the only one that popped into my head at the time. My point being that these sort of things dont help do they. I am not going to sit here and thinks up dozens of examples just to appease you. You know that these things happen and when somebody questions it we get 'racist' thrown at us. Yes I know quite a few muslims mainly thru my work as there is quite a high percentage of muslims in my workplace and I have seen how they have changed in the last 10 years or so. I have seen their attitudes change and the way they conduct themselves. I agreed (as I have said) that we havent made it easy for them, especially in the past and we have to hold our hands up to that. But now we dont know who we can trust and who is telling us the truth so we find it easier to be suspicious of the whole group. Like I said before also, a lot of the bombers that around the last few years are home grown in Britain. They are not brought over from foreign countries but are born here and brought up here. So where do they learn about hate? They are learning it here from people who live here and supposedly are English. Like the link I posted on an earlier post about the guy who had all the explosives at his house. He was born here. He was eductaed here. He played with your kids in the street when he was young. And yet, he is quite willing to strap a bomb to himself and blow himself up and countless other people on a bus or tube for some 'cause' that he believes will make him a martyr. Yep, we have no reason to be suspicious at all.
My point being, also as I pointed out before, is that while I agree not all muslims are bomb toting nutters you cant tell who is and who isnt. Thats where the suspicion grows from and why they feel the need to hide behind their group. Which, I dont blame them for. I really dont. I would if it was my community but when there is so much tension around it is best for them to keep their heads down. The only problem with that is its the wrong ones having to keep their heads dwon. Its the innocent ones who wouldnt dream of committing such atrocities that are having to live this way. And that isnt fair. To condemn the whole lot for the actions of the few is wrong but what choice do we have. They feel the same about us Im sure and again, I dont blame them. They look at us and think we all hate all of them so keep out of the way. I am digressing totally here so I sum it up.
From my point of view, everytime somebody leaves a bag on one of my buses you cannot imagine the fear it gives you. Yes, it is more likely to be an abandoned cabbage than a bomb but you cant tell by looking.
Ok this is going to go on for some time isnt it. I wrote that late at night when I was ready to settle down with a dvd I bought (which was a major disappointment I have to say!)
Ok the pigs was just one in thousands of examples I could have used but the only one that popped into my head at the time. My point being that these sort of things dont help do they. I am not going to sit here and thinks up dozens of examples just to appease you. You know that these things happen and when somebody questions it we get 'racist' thrown at us. Yes I know quite a few muslims mainly thru my work as there is quite a high percentage of muslims in my workplace and I have seen how they have changed in the last 10 years or so. I have seen their attitudes change and the way they conduct themselves. I agreed (as I have said) that we havent made it easy for them, especially in the past and we have to hold our hands up to that. But now we dont know who we can trust and who is telling us the truth so we find it easier to be suspicious of the whole group. Like I said before also, a lot of the bombers that around the last few years are home grown in Britain. They are not brought over from foreign countries but are born here and brought up here. So where do they learn about hate? They are learning it here from people who live here and supposedly are English. Like the link I posted on an earlier post about the guy who had all the explosives at his house. He was born here. He was eductaed here. He played with your kids in the street when he was young. And yet, he is quite willing to strap a bomb to himself and blow himself up and countless other people on a bus or tube for some 'cause' that he believes will make him a martyr. Yep, we have no reason to be suspicious at all.
My point being, also as I pointed out before, is that while I agree not all muslims are bomb toting nutters you cant tell who is and who isnt. Thats where the suspicion grows from and why they feel the need to hide behind their group. Which, I dont blame them for. I really dont. I would if it was my community but when there is so much tension around it is best for them to keep their heads down. The only problem with that is its the wrong ones having to keep their heads dwon. Its the innocent ones who wouldnt dream of committing such atrocities that are having to live this way. And that isnt fair. To condemn the whole lot for the actions of the few is wrong but what choice do we have. They feel the same about us Im sure and again, I dont blame them. They look at us and think we all hate all of them so keep out of the way. I am digressing totally here so I sum it up.
From my point of view, everytime somebody leaves a bag on one of my buses you cannot imagine the fear it gives you. Yes, it is more likely to be an abandoned cabbage than a bomb but you cant tell by looking.
I feel sad that you feel you have to live such a paranoid life ( the media do a grand job dont they). I also feel sad that the changes you've seen over that last 10 years you put mainly down to muslims. Maybe they changed slightly when we were killing thier relatives in Iraq? Maybe they changed as we got so hyped with the quoran and muslim slagging - maybe its better to keep yourself to yourself when every newpaper you look at is slating your 'entire' religeon and when you have become an easy target for abuse in the street?
I dont disagree with you that things arnt good, I do however feel that its a much bigger picture.
Joined: 16 Nov 2007 Posts: 751 Location: Leicester
Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 11:51 am Post subject:
Never said I disagreed on that point but you sound a little like Fred unfortunatly. He seems to have some ideal that we should all live by and while, yes it would be lovely to all get along as we should and love thy neighbour and all that malarky, its just not feasable. I know its not fair but when someone gets on my bus sporting a full beard and wearing voluminus robes, I think what are they hiding. Rightly or wrongly, I know its not fair but thats life. Yes they should be allowed to wear what the hell they like but it bornes suspicion. As for Iraq, remind me again while we are there? And why we are having our soldiers killed? I think it had something to do with the fact that their leaders decided to have the whole world change their thinking to their ideas and bomb the buggers who didnt want to. Wasnt it something like that? Or am I just being a bit paranoid?
[quote="Polgara69"]Never said I disagreed on that point but you sound a little like Fred unfortunatly.
lmao
He seems to have some ideal that we should all live by and while, yes it would be lovely to all get along as we should and love thy neighbour and all that malarky, its just not feasable.
I dont neccessarily believe in ideals but i do believe in working towards them as much as is possible. In my world throwing huge groups of people into one pot and labelling em is simply wrong. (unlike fred who lumps people together and judges them all the time - in fact isnt that what you're doing )
I know its not fair but when someone gets on my bus sporting a full beard and wearing voluminus robes, I think what are they hiding.
Thats extrememly cynical. I can sort of see where you're coming from tho. I have an unreasonable fear of sharks and as a result dont swim in the sea. I know its unreasonable (due to the fact that they do kill humans but im more likely to be punched in the face by lennox lewis) but i just cant seem to shake the fear. Is it a bit like that?
Rightly or wrongly, I know its not fair but thats life. Yes they should be allowed to wear what the hell they like but it bornes suspicion.
It bornes suspicion if you are suspicious - I dont feel like that.
[b] As for Iraq, remind me again while we are there? And why we are having our soldiers killed? I think it had something to do with the fact that their leaders decided to have the whole world change their thinking to their ideas and bomb the buggers who didnt want to. Wasnt it something like that? Or am I just being a bit paranoid?[/quote[/b]]
Whyever we were we there for and whatever your take on it the fact is that it put muslims here in a very vulnerable position, one that made many of them feel extrememly intimidated. Im not debating the actual reasons for the war but how it made many muslims feel.
Joined: 04 Sep 2007 Posts: 2720 Location: Kleptabalonian Consulate, Lake Macquarie, NSW Australia
Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 5:20 pm Post subject: Extreme militant Muslims..
joe310 wrote:
even if only 10% think that way, how many does that come out to?
The more extreme trouble-making Muslims tend to come from the more conservative and fundamentalist 30% of Islam...
There are currently just over 1.2 billion Muslims - around 30% are in the more conservative end - let's round that down to 350 million supporters..
In most populations around 90% of people just want to be left alone to get on with their lives - that gives us 35 million potential terrorists - more than the population of Canada. These are the people who want to inflict 'Sharia Law' on the rest of the planet..
The reality with such groups is that over 90% of such people are usually too lazy to even get out of their own ways - even when their own lives depend on it...
Still - that leaves us with maybe 3 million willing terrorists !!!
Only a small fraction [: less than 1/4 of 1%..], of the total Muslim population of this planet, but still a sizeable potential threat..
And remember - it only took a couple dozen terrorists on each of the attacks on New York, London, Madrid and Moscow (the Chechnyans in the Opera theatre a few years back..).
[ Al Qaeda isn't a terrorist group - it is an over-reaching terrorist-support umbrella organisation, that involves itself in supplying terrorist groups with money, training, supplies, intelligence and (so-called..) spiritual guidance. It has over a hundred terrorist groups around the world that comes under this 'umbrella'..].
Joined: 04 Sep 2007 Posts: 2720 Location: Kleptabalonian Consulate, Lake Macquarie, NSW Australia
Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 5:29 pm Post subject: Where were terrorists from ??
Polgara69 wrote:
Never said I disagreed on that point but you sound a little like Fred unfortunatly. He seems to have some ideal that we should all live by and while, yes it would be lovely to all get along as we should and love thy neighbour and all that malarky, its just not feasable. I know its not fair but when someone gets on my bus sporting a full beard and wearing voluminus robes, I think what are they hiding. Rightly or wrongly, I know its not fair but thats life. Yes they should be allowed to wear what the hell they like but it bornes suspicion. As for Iraq, remind me again while we are there? And why we are having our soldiers killed? I think it had something to do with the fact that their leaders decided to have the whole world change their thinking to their ideas and bomb the buggers who didnt want to. Wasnt it something like that? Or am I just being a bit paranoid?
Neither Iraq nor Iran had any connection with the terrorist attacks on New York, London or Madrid. The people behind 9/11 were from Saudi Arabia and Egypt; while the London bombers were mostly British citizens..
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but I wonder if all of us can live together in peace?
)
