Kosovo: Is Recognition a Good Idea?

[ILWL]

Europe could be welcoming a new state into it's family shortly. Yesterday the Albanian dominated autonomous province hit the news after a self-declaration of the territory's independence.

The success of such a declaration will depend largely on outside support in order to turn de-facto independence into something more official.

Apparently within the territory itself there is support for the move. At least amongst the majority of the (Albanian) population, however there has been some dissent from the minority Serbs - with whom the place has a special significance.

So should the wishes of the majority alone influence the decision of the European Governments?

With Serbian national pride at stake and Russia's influence on the region - perhaps our governments actions should be conducted with a mind to the following factors:

History - The Balkans have long been an area where the ethnic dynamics could create an explosive situation. Would recognition threaten any balance of power locally? Could this create similar demands from Albanians in Macedonia?

Precedent - Are states fixed or fluid entities? Can anyone entertain this proposition without the risk of similar demands within their territories?

Russia - Has a deep attachment to the region and have a similar history to the Serbs. Should we accept this as their sphere of influence?

[myron myron]

I have very definite views on this subject, which I will expound on when I have a bit more time to type them out -- probably tonight NYC time.

[Lena]

Vlada here from Serbia isn't too excited about this................


Moi is looking around for Kosovo independance partys , hey I'll party down with anyone who has alcohol and a good buffet .

[Bushwalker]

Among the first countries to officially recognise Kosovo as an independent country are Slovenia, the USA, Britain and Australia...


So - looks like we will be in good company here - the Kleptabalonian Confederacy hereby recognises Kosovo as a new and independent Earthling state..


Now it's up to G&P, Lord Fred', and Lena, to come forth and recognise them on behalf of the nefarious Zaptronian Alliance.


P.S. Release any Abducted Aliens still held in the old Yugoslavia !!!

[ILWL]

[Bushwalker]

[myron myron]

The American-led NATO invasion of Serbia was an indisputably illegal act of unprovoked military aggression against a democratically elected government of a sovereign country that had not committed aggression outside its internationally recognized borders.

The American-led NATO invasion of Serbia was an indisputably illegal act of unprovoked military aggression against the democratically elected government of a sovereign country that was fighting a terrorist insurgency within its internationally recognized borders. NATO illegally fought on the side of the insurgent Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA), which was listed by the U.S. State Department as a terrorist organization and which included in its ranks some of the same Islamist jihadists killing American soldiers today in Iraq and Afghanistan.

The American-led NATO invasion of Serbia entailed 73 continuous days and nights of aerial bombing intentionally aimed at civilian targets in the Serbian capital, Belgrade, which was nowhere near the conflict in Kosovo -- in brazen violation of the Geneva Conventions.

The American-led NATO invasion of Serbia clearly violated, indeed subverted, the NATO Charter which defines NATO as a purely defensive alliance. Serbia had not attacked or initiated military hostilities against any NATO member.

There was not a single UN Security Council Resolution against Serbia and thus no claim that Serbia violated same.

Serbia was never accused of developing or possessing WMD.

Serbia did not initiate any military conflict against the United States or any NATO member.

The Clinton Administration/NATO made no attempt whatsoever to secure a UN Security Council Resolution condemning Serbia or authorizing any military action against Serbia because Clinton/NATO knew that Serbia had done nothing to warrant same.

Clinton was denied required legal authority by the U.S. Senate and U.S. House of Representatives for military action against Serbia. Clinton defiantly ignored the U.S. Constitution.

A UN Report issued just before the NATO bombing of Serbia concluded that a total of less than 2,000 people had died in all the prior years of conflict in Kosovo -- about 50/50 Albanians and Serbs -- and that the KLA was at least as responsible as the Serbs for those deaths.

The American-led NATO invasion of Serbia violated and ignored every established rule and norm of international law, the Geneva Conventions, the NATO Charter and American law.

Yet because NATO won the war, none of the aforesaid egregious violations ever mattered and Kosovo has now “declared independence” and seceded from Serbia with the imprimatur of the UN and the "international community" (except Russia and Serbia).

The American-led NATO coalition got off scot free after committing numerous war crimes and violations of international law much worse than anything alleged against Milosevic. Yet Milosevic was the one put on trial.

The obvious lesson from Kosovo’s “declaration of independence” and secession from Serbia is that history is written by the winners.

In my opinion, Kosovo's declaration of independence is the culmination of the most shameful, lawless, and profoundly unjust military action by an American President, who is truly guilty of war crimes.

Shorn of all the sophistry, the real reason behind the American-led NATO invasion of Serbia is hanging between Bill Clinton’s legs: his dick, which he could not keep in his pants around young girls. Kosovo was Clinton’s attempt to divert national attention from his sordid indiscipline. The rest is all bullshit.

[ILWL]

Myron: You obviously have very strong views about this!

I am largely in agreement. There is a real cynicism about this act and no doubt there will be Kurds in Iraq / Turkey / Syria wondering why they cannot just declare their independence.

If I remember rightly our intervention was justified on humanitarian grounds - I think few of us made the distinction between a UN and NATO intervention.

I must admit to feeling a great degree of sympathy towards Serbia with this - I wonder whether if the same ethics would apply if for example Moslems in this country felt that they wanted to undertake a similar venture. Afterall if they feel compelled to exercise a democratic right and secede - that would be valid because it is their wish right!

What are the odds that Britain's motivation is based on a desire to encourage the quick incorporation of this 'State' into the European Union. In order to supplant existing supplies of cheap labour already in this country. This view is in my opinion justified by Serbia's status outside that orbit and the De-facto independence which existed before hand.

It would be interesting to see, whether this new state creates it's own currency or whether on this front it remains Serbian!

[myron myron]

Kosovo cannot and will not become a functioning independent state. It is merely an interim entity, a poorly concealed ruse, a vehicle, to effect the expropriation of Serbian territory by secession and merger with Albania. The so-called "Kosovars" are ethnically Albanians.

Kosovo has been universally recognized as part of Serbia for centuries. The region has a defining historical and religious significance to Serbia -- kinda like Israel has to the Jews.

Albanians gradually migrated to Kosovo over decades, all the while recognizing that Kosovo was Serbia. The Albanians in Kosovo had a higher birth rate than the native Serbs. Eventually, the Albanians outnumbered the Serbs in Kosovo.

Between 1941 and 1985, Albania was ruled by a brutal Communist dictator, Enver Hoxha, who outlawed all religions, massacred Muslim and Christian clerics and pursued total isolationism from the world except for Yugoslavia, then (after falling out with Marshall Tito) the U.S.S.R., and finally China. A doctrinaire Communist, Hoxha suppressed Albanian nationalism as well. Hoxha died in 1985. The Soviet Union dissolved in 1991. Albania became a "democracy" in 1992, bringing with it a resurgence in Albanian nationalism which (as is common in geographically small countries) found expression in territorial ambitions, namely Kosovo.

The Albanians in Kosovo knew they could not secede from Serbia without big time military assistance. And they knew no major military power would assist in bringing about Kosovo's outright secession from Serbia and merger with Albania. They also knew that the West are suckers for "independence movements."

So the Albanians in Kosovo formed a paramilitary terrorist organization called the "Kosovo Liberation Army" (KLA) and began robbing, killing, raping and expelling the Serb minority from Kosovo. Being as Albanians are Muslims, the KLA was an explicitly Islamic terrorist organization. Flush with victory after expelling the Russians from Afghanistan, Islamist jihadists the world over flocked to join the KLA and help slay the Christian Serb infidels.

When KLA terrorism in Kosovo reached a tipping point, Serbia's democratically elected President Milosevic did what any responsible national leader would and should do: he sent troops to quell the armed revolt within Serbia's borders.

Coincidentally, Western European leaders were in a particularly craven disposition vis-a-vis militant Islamists within their own borders. The Europeans figured that awarding Kosovo to the Islamist Albanians might appease radical Islamists in their own countries. But Western Europe had neither the ability nor the willingness to do the dirty work of illegally wresting Kosovo from Serbia. So they called on the United States for help.

The Western Europeans’ timing in asking the Americans to fight their battles could not have been better. President Bill Clinton was reeling from the political consequences of his indiscriminately insatiable dick. Clinton was facing impeachment, not for his satyriasis but owing to his congenital mendacity. Nothing is better at diverting a native population from domestic crisis than a war. Kosovo was perfect for Clinton: he could win the war without sending any soldiers to fight and die. You see, Clinton was deathly afraid of committing American ground troops anywhere because he knew the American military loathed him not only because he dodged the draft but because he did so by writing a letter in which he stated “I loathe the military.” So Clinton ordered the American military not to fight on the ground in Kosovo, but to bomb Serbian civilian population centers (i.e., cities, including the capital Belgrade) continuously day and night until the Serbs gave up rather than regressing to the Stone Age. The aerial bombings intentionally targeted civilian targets in gross violation of the Geneva Conventions.

Clinton still got impeached but he won his war and thus avoided being prosecuted for the war crimes he committed – history is written by the winners. But karma will render the independence of Kosovo a thorn in the sides of all those who brought about this gross injustice.


(I'll answer your questions in my next post)

[Gibbous Moon]

I think the difficulty of defining Serbia is an example of the non-static nature of borders, nations, ethic groups and states. It’s difficult to freeze these things in time. Whist the Serbs do have a strong historic and cultural connection to Kosovo the whole area of the Balkans was part of the Ottoman . for about 400 years.

Do you freeze the borders of Israel circa 4400BC, 44BC, 1944AD or 1948 AD?

Do you freeze the borders of the US as at 1776, 1864, 1866 or 1948?

What about Northern Ireland? Which historical perspective should we favour there?

Is Edinburgh still in the Roman .?

It’s also notable that despite claiming a strong connection to the area not enough Serbs sold up in Belgrade and moved to Kosovo to affect the vote.

I fully supported (and still do) the NATO war against Serbia. Not because Serbia’s claim on Kosovo is any worse than the people who currently live there but because Serbia was being beastly to its neighbours and because the Balkans destabilises Europe.

Serbia was no more beastly than the Croats had been 50 years before or presumably the Albanians had been during Ottoman times but they were being beastly right then.

Their intervention in Kosovo threatened to drag in Albania and Greece into the series of Balkan wars and I think we all know what happens when European states get dragged into Balkan conflicts.

Assuming I don’t go under a bus in the next few years I’ll be only the second male on my mother’s side of the family born in the 20th century to live to the age of 35. All the others except my maternal grandfather were killed in the 1st or 2nd World War or died early as a result of wounds, war related illness or mistreatment in prisoner-of-war camps. Generations killed partly as a result of a tussle over some mountainous backwater.

Never again.

I don’t care who runs which bits of the Balkans as long as they stop shooting each other and asking us to take sides. Yugoslavian, Serb, Croat, Bosnian-Herzegovinian, Albanian, Kosovar or Albanian-Kosovar; Catholic, Muslim or Orthodox. I don’t care. As long as they do it quietly and don’t trigger any pan-European wars they can have as many or as few flags as they like.

Given that they’ll all be inside the European Union in about 30 years any way it matters not a jot to me and nor should it to them.

When I was young my brothers and I used to squabble and then ask my parents to arbitrate which was a complete pain for them because they never knew the whole story and there was so much history backing up every claim and counter claim that it was impossible to arbitrate fairly. Eventually they said, if you can’t sort it out between yourselves we’re sending you all to bed without supper and we don’t care who’s right or wrong. The person making the most noise will also be grounded for a week. Get on with it, quietly.

That’s how I feel about the Balkans.

They’ve demonstrated several times that they can’t make peace without being bullied into it. Fine, here’s my big stick, here are my friends the Americans with their even bigger (but not quite as well made) stick.

The whole place was never worth the bones of a Pomeranian grenadier in 1914, it’s certainly not worth the bones of a Gordon Highlander in 2008 but if the only way to stop ourselves, our allies and our good friends and colleagues the Russians from getting sucked in to another undignified tussle is to stamp very hard on anyone and every one who causes a rumpus, so be it.

GM

[GayandProud]

excellent post Gibbous !

Good to see you back

[Gibbous Moon]

Good to be back.

Hard work is good for the soul but it don't half eat into your social life.

GM

[ILWL]

Good point(s) Gibbous.

However whilst you make a good case - I cannot totally agree with you.

[myron myron]

[Gibbous Moon]

It doesn’t necessarily imply that Serbia was intervening in a separate state We intervened in Northern Ireland and the government of the Republic of Ireland took an interest. I think if we’d set about massacring lots of catholic civilians the Republic of Ireland would have been tempted to invade.

The Balkans weren’t the cause of all causes of the 1st World War but they have been a running sore in settling European geo-politics for generations. They act as flash point. In 1914 Russia refusal to treat the Serbian separatist movement as a matter internal to the Austro-Hungarian . and everyone else’s refusal not be dragged in lead the rest of Europe into war. Russia seems to have forgotten nothing and remembered nothing about the last time it got involved in the Balkans.


Spheres of influence is an interestingly 19th Century view of the world. I’m not sure it’s a philosophy I’d like to see continued into the 21st Century.

Anyway who said Kosovo was Russia’s sphere of influence? My view is that Russia has no business getting involved with any state or proto-state that has indicated a desire to accede to the EU.

My view isn’t that we’re bigger than them so they should do as we tell them. My view is that the whole lot of them tend to behave like bandits to each other and that we are right to stop them doing so, especially within or close to the borders of the EU.

GM