Too old to wear knee socks to school?

[Experienced Mother]

Experienced Mother

Thanks for your reply. The position I am coming from is if I was their manager/supervisor I would have found it very difficult to promote these two office juniors whilst they were still in socks. I am not sure they would be in a position to exert the authority asked of them. It must have been very tempting for some one on the same level as them to treat them as a subordinate, and similarly being subject to authoritative parents probably meant the girls obeyed orders and instructions without question. If the office juniors were working together as a group, I could see these girls getting the more mundane/less interesting tasks to do.

The older of the two girls must have had a difficult four months, after the time the younger of the two girls had been allowed tights as soon as she reached eighteen. She must have wondered how much longer she had to wear socks, and probably had fears that it could have been as late as twenty one (the traditional coming of age). Imagine what that would have been like!

Outside the office they must have seen countless school girls wearing tights, some a lot younger than they were, and this in particular must have been uneasy for them. I can also remember a few harsh winters back in the 1970’s and having to go bare legged with just knee socks must have been very uncomfortable.

I agree it must have been difficult for the older girl to have to remain in white socks after her younger colleague went into tights and I also agree that neither girl could expect to be promoted while still wearing socks. I would not have put my daughter through this. If parents want their child to remain in socks when all other girls around them are in tights they should do what others have suggested on this forum. That is let them wear tights for school or work and have them change into their white socks when they get home. Both these girls could have been kept in socks all the time away from the office but allowed tights for work.

Still, this was a long time ago and it is unlikely to happen now (Lorreta's case excepted). There were undoubtedly a few parents up to the 1970s who made their daughters wear white socks through to their late teens or even to 21 which as you say was the age of majority up to 1970. If some of the posts on this forum are to be believed then there are still parents who use it as a punishment for young women in their 20s.

[The Colonel]

Jesus Christ!

Just let the kids wear what they flaming well want to and be done with it!

It's a bloody pair of socks or tights for christ sake! It doesn't flaming matter!

[Victoria Wales]

Thank you Experienced Mother for your post.

I am firmly on the side of parents maintaining authority over their children living with them whether or not the children technically are of the age of majority. For relatively younger children (those under the age of majority) irrespective of whether they appear to behave in an adult manner should, in my opinion, have dress rules and standards appropriate for under-age children. Then after a live at home child reaches the age of majority, dress standards and rules may be based upon the actual maturity and demonstrated responsibility of that child regardless of chronological age. Thus, an 18 year old may be dressed in a more adult manner than a 22 year old. Indeed, this can become an incentive for the child to behave more responsibly and appropriately. I am not at all adverse to the parent utilizing dress requirements as a method of disciplinary and control. In any case, I believe that the child should at all times maintain basic standards of dress.

I am interested in learning where I may be able to see more discussions of this and similar topics. I would appreciate learning more of your and others’ views.

Victoria

[Jilly J]

Hi,

I couldn't agree more with your messages Victoria. To me there are at least 3 important strands:

1) Parents should control what their children wear.
2) Children should wear an appropriate uniform for school as this sets appropriate standards and avoids issues between pupils. This should be sensible and for girls I think what Winifred outlined as her normal school uniform is very sensible. Having lived for a while in the US I can confirm that standards of school dress are even worse than here in the UK.
3) Use of alternative age uniform as a punsihment together with other disciplining is an option. It is clear from all of these posts that both from the point of view of those who have received such punishments and those who have applied them they appear without exception to have been very effective. I am not sure if some of the posts are real but you may be surprised how many parents use this approach (I know 2 other mothers as well as myself who have done so). I have to admit we have used this occassionally with all 3 of our daughters and with the required effects. They are now aged 13-18 but whenever they have had to spend a few days wearing ankle socks, a green gingham dress and purple cardigan with their hair in pig tails and with a few other appropriate restrictions they have all been subsequently on their best behaviour.


Jilly

[Experienced Mother]

Thank you Experienced Mother for your post.

I am firmly on the side of parents maintaining authority over their children living with them whether or not the children technically are of the age of majority. For relatively younger children (those under the age of majority) irrespective of whether they appear to behave in an adult manner should, in my opinion, have dress rules and standards appropriate for under-age children. Then after a live at home child reaches the age of majority, dress standards and rules may be based upon the actual maturity and demonstrated responsibility of that child regardless of chronological age. Thus, an 18 year old may be dressed in a more adult manner than a 22 year old. Indeed, this can become an incentive for the child to behave more responsibly and appropriately. I am not at all adverse to the parent utilizing dress requirements as a method of disciplinary and control. In any case, I believe that the child should at all times maintain basic standards of dress.

I am interested in learning where I may be able to see more discussions of this and similar topics. I would appreciate learning more of your and others’ views.

Victoria

Hello Victoria,

In principle I think you are absolutely correct. Parents should have the right to impose appropriate discipline and control over their adult children if they remain living at home. However, it is a question of degree and what is appropriate. What happens in the privacy of the home is for the parents to decide. Making an adult child wear clothing more suited to a much younger age group is humiliating but can be highly effective, as can be corporal punishment, but parents need to be sensitive to what others outside of the home might think. Taking a 22 year old girl or boy out in public dressed like a five year old would usually be unacceptable but they may be seen by selected visitors to the home as an added humiliation especially if this includes much younger children who would be guaranteed to tease them. I said to 1970's Kid that I would not have made an 18 year old daughter of mine go to work in white socks (as happened in the insurance office in which I worked) but I see nothing wrong with parents making her wear white socks around the house.

Then there is the question of the clothing itself. Lorretta says she was punished by her parents up to the age of 23 by being made to wear white socks, childish dresses and hair ribbon presumably including for her work in the shop (although she does not specify this). If it made her look much younger it may not have been too bad as she would not have looked out of place but if she was a tall well built young lady then dressed like this would have made her look ridiculous. I assume she looked younger as she comments that customers to the shop asked her age as they thought she was too young to be working.

The same with corporal punishment. Parents should be able to administer this to adult children in the home as required but I would not advocate a parent lifting the back of the skirt and slapping the legs of a 25 year old daughter in the shopping mall if she misbehaves.

I cannot give you any specific websites that cover this topic as I have not kept their names. However there are many that address the treatment of adult children who remain living at home and I suggest you carry out a Google search.

Would be nice to hear from you again.

Elaine

[Victoria Wales]

Hi,

I couldn't agree more with your messages Victoria. To me there are at least 3 important strands:

1) Parents should control what their children wear.
2) Children should wear an appropriate uniform for school as this sets appropriate standards and avoids issues between pupils. This should be sensible and for girls I think what Winifred outlined as her normal school uniform is very sensible. Having lived for a while in the US I can confirm that standards of school dress are even worse than here in the UK.
3) Use of alternative age uniform as a punsihment together with other disciplining is an option. It is clear from all of these posts that both from the point of view of those who have received such punishments and those who have applied them they appear without exception to have been very effective. I am not sure if some of the posts are real but you may be surprised how many parents use this approach (I know 2 other mothers as well as myself who have done so). I have to admit we have used this occassionally with all 3 of our daughters and with the required effects. They are now aged 13-18 but whenever they have had to spend a few days wearing ankle socks, a green gingham dress and purple cardigan with their hair in pig tails and with a few other appropriate restrictions they have all been subsequently on their best behaviour.


Jilly

Jilly, I wholeheartedly agree with all three points you make and I believe these form an excellent framework for appropriate parental control over a child's dress (including for older children) . First there is parental control over the child's dress; Second, there is the child's dress standards for normal situations; and Third, there are disciplinary uses of alternate age uniforms. Excellent.

I would likie to inquire, whether now that your oldest is 18 years old, do you plan to continue having control in the above three ways over her dress and uniforms; and if so, for how much longer. I am also interested in what the other appropriate restrictions consist of. Is your disciplinary uniform for your children worn outside the house?

Thank you for your informative post.

Victoria

[Victoria Wales]

Elaine,

I agree with you that for older boys or girls undergoing strict dress discipline, it may well be appropriate to limit their required appearances t guests at home or visits to relatives or known friends. I too do not believe in excessive public exposure. I believe that if the child under dress discipline is to be brought out in public, the severity of the dress discipline must be rather limited--it may be sufficient to simply be put in a more age appropriate uniform for the weekend (rather than a juvenile uniform)--simply the fact of being in a uniform out of school constituting sufficient discipline.

I believe that limiting the wearer's contacts to known visitors (or to those who are visited) is an excellent method of utilizing stricter dress discipline. The disciplined boy or girl is not free to hide away from everyone, but the embarrassing exposure is appropriately limited.
I think in this setting the disciplined boy or girl may well be called upon to model his or her uniform to the guests.

Thank you for your insightful comments.

Victoria

[Victoria Wales]

Hi,

I couldn't agree more with your messages Victoria. To me there are at least 3 important strands:

1) Parents should control what their children wear.
2) Children should wear an appropriate uniform for school as this sets appropriate standards and avoids issues between pupils. This should be sensible and for girls I think what Winifred outlined as her normal school uniform is very sensible. Having lived for a while in the US I can confirm that standards of school dress are even worse than here in the UK.
3) Use of alternative age uniform as a punsihment together with other disciplining is an option. It is clear from all of these posts that both from the point of view of those who have received such punishments and those who have applied them they appear without exception to have been very effective. I am not sure if some of the posts are real but you may be surprised how many parents use this approach (I know 2 other mothers as well as myself who have done so). I have to admit we have used this occassionally with all 3 of our daughters and with the required effects. They are now aged 13-18 but whenever they have had to spend a few days wearing ankle socks, a green gingham dress and purple cardigan with their hair in pig tails and with a few other appropriate restrictions they have all been subsequently on their best behaviour.


Jilly

Jilly,

I hope I am not being too intrusive, but I am quite interested in the nature of your regime with your children as I believe it exemplifies an excellent example of appropriate parental authority. I would like to clarify my questions to you.

Regarding your first "strand", do I understand you correctly to say that you maintain authority over your children's dress (including your 18 year old)? If this is correct, until what age or what time will you continue to maintain such authority?

Regarding your second "strand", what standard (non-punishment) uniform and dress requirements do you have for your children?

Regarding your third "strand", how public is your children's wearing of their punishment uniforms? I would generally be interested in the details of how these punishment periods function. Can you tell us something about the regimes imposed by the other two mothers you know who use dress punishment?

Thank you for your insights.

Victoria

[Mary24]

Lorretta,

Yours is a very touching tale. Its not so unusual to wear knee high socks to school although there are only a few schools these days that insist on them for year 10/11 students.

Your life after school must have been difficult. Its very difficult to influence some parents at 16 years old and just having left school you could reasonably have expected at little latitude with your clothes, if only from the aspect that you should not “stand out” at work. However, your family seem to have circumvented this by getting you a job in your auntie’s shop where you would only have to work with your aunt and therefore your dress code rules could easily be perpetuated and effectively supervised.

The gingham dresses and knee socks with sandals or flat shoes is perhaps even more juvenile that your original school uniform and you must have felt even more sensitive about your appearance as your “clothing age” had effectively regressed to that of at best a 12 or 13 year old.

It would appear that many of your aunt’s customers thought that you were too young to work in the shop and therefore I would presume that you did not look like an older girl dressed as a child but that you were actually convincing as a younger girl.

If this was the case then your parents may have been dressing you in this manner to keep you away from the opposite sex on the assumption that you would easily pass as a younger school girl and therefore would be of little interest to boys of your own age. Sadly, the major downside was that you lost many of your girl friends. I can sympathise here as the same thing happened to me because I was kept in a more junior uniform for a couple of years more than my peers and they very quickly stopped “hanging around” with me.

Although you don’t explicitly say, it would appear that after you were 18 you were allowed to wear more grown up clothing but your juvenile clothing was reserved for punishment. This seems designed to humiliate you as you were required to wear a school uniform skirt and knee socks once again. I assume you were not made to wear a full school uniform in terms of blouse, tie and blazer etc.

Although your teenage years were dominated by junior school uniform you didn’t say what your underwear was. This may seem like a strange question to ask but I suffered into my latter teens and early twenties by being forced to wear juvenile underwear, in my case huge elasticated school knickers and vest (without a bra until I was 17) and therefore I was wondering if you suffered similarly. While I didn’t understand this treatment at the time I now presume it was to curb any thoughts of intimate relations with the opposite sex as my underwear would be too embarrassing to be seen.

I look forward to hearing from you

Love,

Mary

[1970's Kid]

The principle behind enforcing an older teenager to remain in white socks was not just a question of clothing but to demonstrate to both the girl and the wider community that she was not an adult and should be regarded as a child. This is what the parents of the two office juniors wanted to convey. The parents knew very well it would be virtually impossible for their daughter to engage in grown up activities such as smoking, going to pubs and clubs or even going to see certain films in the cinema. They also knew that by keeping them in unfashionable and juvenile clothing styles they would not attract the attention of boys, and most girls (often the sort who would do things the girls’ parents disapproved of) would not want to be associated with them. The girls themselves have been brought up under the strict rules of their parents and would have been conditioned to abide by their rules. The socks were a powerful tool in their parent’s disciplinary armoury to enforce a standard of behaviour they felt was appropriate.

What you probably found is the girls’ parents were probably also subjected to similar upbringing by their own parents, and some of the girls as mothers are more likely to impose such a regime on their own children. What you find about such families is they usually deeply religious with conservative values, but because they lead narrow lives are not usually high achievers in their careers.

[Totally Confused]

What on earth has happened to this website? It is a complete and utter mess!!

[The Colonel]

[sarah_W]

Is it me or have half the posts on this thread suddenly disappeared?

[Victoria Wales]

Is it me or have half the posts on this thread suddenly disappeared?

Sarah,

I would say well more than one-half of the posts have disappeared--including even the original inquiry. It appears that all of the "guest" inquries and comments up until today have disappeared in their entirety. It appears that within the last 24 hours, the board has changed its look and presentation. Possibly this switch over caused the deletions. In any case, I was interested in the guests' comments and their deletion is frustrating.
Victoria

[The Colonel]

It is partly to do with closing down the crap threads. I marked this one for deletion. That is why.