terrorism

[nikko2]

And what do do against it?

Yesterday I was discussing this with some friends under some beers what could be do against those suicide attackers.
Its a difficult thing to fight againt people who dont mind to die, or even prefer to die because some have put some idea in their heads that with dying like this they will go directly to heaven and have a harem of virgins waiting for them there.
So what can you do against those fanatics, we more or less agreed that against them you cant do nothing to prefent them to do those atacks. But we came up with the idea of getting them trough their families. Like their belonging wil be confiscated to pay out the damage they have caused on innocent victims.
So maybe they will think twice then before they take the step of those atacks because they know they will hurt their own families also.

Its not a perfect solucion, not by far but what can you do against them? Any one have his ideas or thought about this?

[ILWL]

And what do do against it?

Yesterday I was discussing this with some friends under some beers what could be do against those suicide attackers.
Its a difficult thing to fight againt people who dont mind to die, or even prefer to die because some have put some idea in their heads that with dying like this they will go directly to heaven and have a harem of virgins waiting for them there.
So what can you do against those fanatics, we more or less agreed that against them you cant do nothing to prefent them to do those atacks. But we came up with the idea of getting them trough their families. Like their belonging wil be confiscated to pay out the damage they have caused on innocent victims.
So maybe they will think twice then before they take the step of those atacks because they know they will hurt their own families also.

Its not a perfect solucion, not by far but what can you do against them? Any one have his ideas or thought about this?

Aside the echoes to a Nazi Police State - the massive flaw I can see in this is at what point do these people become terrorists?

[myron myron]

It has nothing to do with "a Nazi Police State," whatever that means; it has to do what fighting suicide terrorism.

"These people become terrorists" when they commit a terrorist act.

"These people become terrorists" when they engage in a criminal conspiracy to commmit a terrorist act, which consists of a plan to commit a terrorist act and an overt act further to that plan.

Israel does something very similar to what the OP is suggesting. The Israelis destroy the home(s) of a terrorist's immediate family, usually with a bulldozer or with explosives, after giving the family advance warning and time to evacuate.

[ILWL]

It has nothing to do with "a Nazi Police State," whatever that means; it has to do what fighting suicide terrorism.

"These people become terrorists" when they commit a terrorist act.

"These people become terrorists" when they engage in a criminal conspiracy to commmit a terrorist act, which consists of a plan to commit a terrorist act and an overt act further to that plan.

Israel does something very similar to what the OP is suggesting. The Israelis destroy the home(s) of a terrorist's immediate family, usually with a bulldozer or with explosives, after giving the family advance warning and time to evacuate.

So this is not about prevention - it's deterence! Or is that revenge?

What of Israel anyway - It seems they haven't been able to deal with this problem - On the other hand Myron - Is this about making terrorists or preventing further outrages and suffering?

It is all about what the other side are doing isn't it?

[noodles]

It has nothing to do with "a Nazi Police State," whatever that means; it has to do what fighting suicide terrorism.

"These people become terrorists" when they commit a terrorist act.

"These people become terrorists" when they engage in a criminal conspiracy to commmit a terrorist act, which consists of a plan to commit a terrorist act and an overt act further to that plan.

Israel does something very similar to what the OP is suggesting. The Israelis destroy the home(s) of a terrorist's immediate family, usually with a bulldozer or with explosives, after giving the family advance warning and time to evacuate.

Thats great - so I suppose when your son (or son of someone who you know well) goes a bit awol and joins such a group - you'll happily stand by when they bulldoze you home ( or your friends home) cause afterall that would be fair wouldnt it? You could go and live in the YMCA with your other kids and possibly your grandkids with the peace of mind that you deserve to pay for the sins of your son? Or maybe its not so appealing afterall when you put yourself in thier shoes?

[myron myron]

It has nothing to do with "a Nazi Police State," whatever that means; it has to do what fighting suicide terrorism.

"These people become terrorists" when they commit a terrorist act.

"These people become terrorists" when they engage in a criminal conspiracy to commmit a terrorist act, which consists of a plan to commit a terrorist act and an overt act further to that plan.

Israel does something very similar to what the OP is suggesting. The Israelis destroy the home(s) of a terrorist's immediate family, usually with a bulldozer or with explosives, after giving the family advance warning and time to evacuate.

So this is not about prevention - it's deterence! Or is that revenge?

What of Israel anyway - It seems they haven't been able to deal with this problem - On the other hand Myron - Is this about making terrorists or preventing further outrages and suffering?

It is all about what the other side are doing isn't it?

Deterrence is prevention.

It is all about deterrence and retribution.

To suggest this is "about making terrorists" is tantamount to blaming the victims. Do you blame rape victims for being raped? Do you ask them what they did to "make" the rapist?

I commend this news story from today's Telegraph entitled "45 Muslim doctors planned US terror raids": http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/07/05/nterror405.xml

Who "made" the 45 British Muslim doctors described in the story into terrorists? Who oppressed them?

How can you say that "it seems they haven't been able to deal with this problem" with respect to the Israelis? How do you know how much more terrorism there would be in Israel if the Israelis took no action but sat on their hands, worrying about what they've done to "make terrorists"?

It sure looks like you folks in the UK are not doing something right, given that there's an entire generation of British-born Muslim terriorists coming into their own. Ask yourselves "about making terrorists."

[myron myron]

It has nothing to do with "a Nazi Police State," whatever that means; it has to do what fighting suicide terrorism.

"These people become terrorists" when they commit a terrorist act.

"These people become terrorists" when they engage in a criminal conspiracy to commmit a terrorist act, which consists of a plan to commit a terrorist act and an overt act further to that plan.

Israel does something very similar to what the OP is suggesting. The Israelis destroy the home(s) of a terrorist's immediate family, usually with a bulldozer or with explosives, after giving the family advance warning and time to evacuate.

Thats great - so I suppose when your son (or son of someone who you know well) goes a bit awol and joins such a group - you'll happily stand by when they bulldoze you home ( or your friends home) cause afterall that would be fair wouldnt it? You could go and live in the YMCA with your other kids and possibly your grandkids with the peace of mind that you deserve to pay for the sins of your son? Or maybe its not so appealing afterall when you put yourself in thier shoes?

My kids wouldn't be Muslim terrorists or any other kind of terrorists.

And the Israelis only bulldoze the home(s) of immediate family, not distant relatives or innocent acquaintances.

[noodles]

It has nothing to do with "a Nazi Police State," whatever that means; it has to do what fighting suicide terrorism.

"These people become terrorists" when they commit a terrorist act.

"These people become terrorists" when they engage in a criminal conspiracy to commmit a terrorist act, which consists of a plan to commit a terrorist act and an overt act further to that plan.

Israel does something very similar to what the OP is suggesting. The Israelis destroy the home(s) of a terrorist's immediate family, usually with a bulldozer or with explosives, after giving the family advance warning and time to evacuate.

Thats great - so I suppose when your son (or son of someone who you know well) goes a bit awol and joins such a group - you'll happily stand by when they bulldoze you home ( or your friends home) cause afterall that would be fair wouldnt it? You could go and live in the YMCA with your other kids and possibly your grandkids with the peace of mind that you deserve to pay for the sins of your son? Or maybe its not so appealing afterall when you put yourself in thier shoes?

My kids wouldn't be Muslim terrorists or any other kind of terrorists.

And the Israelis only bulldoze the home(s) of immediate family, not distant relatives or innocent acquaintances.

And how dya know the immediate family of some suicide bombers didnt feel that thier child/husband would never get involved in such things. A wife and 2 babies say, who's no idea (and actually quite repelled by the thought) and loses her home - you call that some sick kind of justice/deterrant?

And i totally disagree that 'anyone' knows exactly what there kids will or wont do/be.

[myron myron]

While you are so concerned with a hypothetical ignorant wife and infants of a hypothetical suicide bomber concocted in your own mind, my focus is on the real life innocent wives, infants and husbands massacred wantonly by suicide bombers.

Here's real life:

A Hamas suicide terrorist's "farewell" video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owMoT1MKXDQ

The mother of a suicide terrorist talking about her son: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egwz25fW0Co&mode=related&search=

Apologists for suicide terrorists ignore the real life innocent victims of terrorism. In so doing, they diminish the victims' lives and become morally complicit in the barbarism.

[ILWL]

My kids wouldn't be Muslim terrorists or any other kind of terrorists.

You know something Myron - It is so unfortunate that you put Muslim into that sentence.

I wonder what you would think of your offspring if they didn't fight for freedom - bet you would have been proud of them if they did. At which point I think we should discuss your offering.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egwz25fW0Co&mode=related&search=

What is the context for this clip?

-Palestinian Media Watch group - Who are they? Are they a profit making organisation? What is their reading of the clip? Have they themselves got a possible Agenda?

Just a case of the public right to know and all in the interests of national security right?

Do you speak Palestinian? Or is that Arabic? Or shall I just read those subtitles someone has kindly put there for me?

Oh but it is on the TV station isn't it .....Of course we are soooo lucky that our media is completely unbiased and would never seek to influence us into the right way of thinking? In the west our audiences are seen as far too sophisticated and intelligent to see through such propaganda?

Just wouldn't happen would it Myron?

Aren't we lucky that we have good politicians who can be trusted to tell the truth - bad luck on those muslims all they have is the word of those mad mullahs or is that the word of god?

What is their problem right? They get so uptight by words written by people centuries ago - why don't they just see it as pure literature like we would! ISN'T THAT RIGHT MYRON?

We don't fight over dogma - we do it for freedom -

Now could Myron explain to me whether this freedom our great president is fighting for is a subjective or objective condition?

And the Israelis only bulldoze the home(s) of immediate family, not distant relatives or innocent acquaintances.

Is there a maximum to this - where do they stop Myron?

One Home or two plus?
Mum and Dad's retirement pad?
First cousins studio?
Second Cousins semi?

Do they bring the Inlaws into the outlawed group?

But perhaps more pertinent is...

WHO DO THE ISRAELI'S ALLOW TO MOVE IN?

[myron myron]

Did you read the news story I linked in my post above? Are the 45 British Muslim doctors who planned US terror raids "fighting for freedom"?

There has been no dispute about the accuracy of the subtitles in those clips. They are consistent with what is widely known about their subjects. That you question them because you don't know Arabic, doesn't make them questionable. If you have specific grounds to dispute their accuracy, then set forth those grounds.

I will be happy to answer your questions after you answer the questions in my post transmitted Thu Jul 05, 2007 1:51 pm.

I do note your post makes no mention whatsoever of the victims of terrorism. No surprise there. To apologists for terrorism, the innocent victims are non-entities, their lost lives ignored, diminished, marginalized. This facilitates treating the terrorists as victims. The question then becomes what the dead victims must have done to the terrorists to cause them to become terrorists. This is no different than asking a rape victim what they did to cause the rapist to rape them.

I added "Muslim" because the terrorists at issue in this thread are all Muslims; and because the terrorists of 9/11, 7/7, Madrid and Bali were all Muslims; and because, virtually without exception, suicide terrorists in this day and age are all Muslim. Whether you choose to accept it or not, this is a fact.

Britain is the root cause of the intractable conflicts in the Middle East. Israel and Iraq are creatures of Britain. The Brits created Middle East countries by drawing random borders on a map without regard to age-old hostilities. Bitter enemies were haphazardly thrown together in so-called countries. The world is paying a heavy price for this arrogance.

And as I noted above, the UK has spawned a generation of homegrown British Muslim terrorists. Sadly, the carnage we've witnessed from this group to date is only the tip of the iceberg.

So before Brits point fingers at others, they would be well-advised to look at themselves.

[nikko2]

Israel does something very similar to what the OP is suggesting. The Israelis destroy the home(s) of a terrorist's immediate family, usually with a bulldozer or with explosives, after giving the family advance warning and time to evacuate.

But I dont talk about destroying like revenge I mentioned confiscating the belongings to pay out the damage they have caused on innocent victims.

Like a father is killed in a suicide attack and leaving a wife and 3 kids who have to leave their house because they cant afford to pay the loan any more. So they get financial help payed out from the confiscated belongings.

[noodles]

While you are so concerned with a hypothetical ignorant wife and infants of a hypothetical suicide bomber concocted in your own mind, my focus is on the real life innocent wives, infants and husbands massacred wantonly by suicide bombers.

Here's real life:

A Hamas suicide terrorist's "farewell" video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owMoT1MKXDQ

The mother of a suicide terrorist talking about her son: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egwz25fW0Co&mode=related&search=

Apologists for suicide terrorists ignore the real life innocent victims of terrorism. In so doing, they diminish the victims' lives and become morally complicit in the barbarism.

A lot of its hypothetical and driven by fear. Someone here was shot and killed not long ago - apparently a terrorist - turns out he wasnt at all.

Anyway - I wasnt in anyway taking anything away from victims - my point was that families of those who chose this way of life (and in many cases secretively) shouldnt also become victims. Im my eyes thats not a solution - it just aggravates the problem and possibly draws 'more' wouldbe activists into the equation. Were someone to take away my home and that of my family on the strength of something someone esle did maybe I too would then start to believe that said suicide bomber had a point.

[noodles]

your actually belittling the soldiers that go to war to fight for you and your rights.


They are ALL soldiers fighting THEIR war - a faliure to see this is a failure to see the full picture. US and THEM does NOT make a peaceful solution.

People dont die ANYWHERE for ANY REASON in this manner for the fun of it.

how many innocents have been killed in Iraq for example on the back of america and britains supposed need for the greater good. I think anyone is naieve to suspect that there is an absolute right and wrong in this matter.

ALL killings of innocents is wrong. Maybe the 'so-called civilised west' should think about this a little more?

Any argument that says we are all right and they are all wrong smells of MAJOR bullshit to me. And if it doesnt to you, then quite frankly theres unlearned bullshit it the air!!! I dont need to be a political activist or join a political agenda to recognise this.

[myron myron]

I hope that is not directed at me, and if it is, that it's a joke.

If it is directed at me and intended seriously, then you have disqualified yourself from being taken seriously.

I never belittle the soldiers who have fought and continue to fight for my rights.

To equate terrorists who intentionally target innocent women and children, with soldiers, one must be devoid of a moral compass.

Who has killed by far the most innocents in Iraq? The answer is Muslim terrorists who target fellow Muslims.