Joined: 18 Jan 2007 Posts: 17121 Location: aiyeeee....dat good pie!
Posted: Mon May 07, 2007 6:59 pm Post subject: Language and Immigration
OK, so I know this is bound to get me a few hate posts, bring them on, but this issue has been getting on my nerves, severely. I think that if someone is going to relocate to a new country; for example Mexicans crossing into the US, and we are going to allow it, then they should have to have English speaking ability. Same goes for any nationality. Why should those of us that were born here have to learn everyone else's language to accomodate them?
Immigrants here in the states actually expect citizens to go learn their language.....I would say load the 747's up and send them back until they can speak English with the best!
Joined: 18 Jan 2007 Posts: 17121 Location: aiyeeee....dat good pie!
Posted: Mon May 07, 2007 8:38 pm Post subject:
Everywhere I go, English is the language spoken. If I am going to go somewhere that it isn't, you can believe I am going to learn to speak the native language. So why is it, here in the states, we are expected to learn every new language to accomodate some group that refuses to learn English, but want all the Constitutional protections offered citizens?
If they don't know the language, they would not be given citizenship, and they would have one year to have a solid grasp on the basics, and three years of classes before final application can be made for citizenship. It would be like parole, they would have to attend mandatroy meetings to review their work status, present verifiable address, references, and proof of ongoing language and writing lessons. A score of 90% or better cumulative would be required for citizenship, or out they go!
Everywhere I go, English is the language spoken. If I am going to go somewhere that it isn't, you can believe I am going to learn to speak the native language. So why is it, here in the states, we are expected to learn every new language to accomodate some group that refuses to learn English, but want all the Constitutional protections offered citizens?
If they don't know the language, they would not be given citizenship, and they would have one year to have a solid grasp on the basics, and three years of classes before final application can be made for citizenship. It would be like parole, they would have to attend mandatroy meetings to review their work status, present verifiable address, references, and proof of ongoing language and writing lessons. A score of 90% or better cumulative would be required for citizenship, or out they go!
I'm probably missing something here - I'm not an American and haven't yet been there - but it seems like you have a pretty massive Spanish speaking population. They're there and they're not going away - they're surely no less a part of your nation than French speaking Canadians are a part of theirs. I'm not sure why all this irks you. Who is forceably teaching you Spanish?
Everywhere I go, English is the language spoken. If I am going to go somewhere that it isn't, you can believe I am going to learn to speak the native language. So why is it, here in the states, we are expected to learn every new language to accomodate some group that refuses to learn English, but want all the Constitutional protections offered citizens?
If they don't know the language, they would not be given citizenship, and they would have one year to have a solid grasp on the basics, and three years of classes before final application can be made for citizenship. It would be like parole, they would have to attend mandatroy meetings to review their work status, present verifiable address, references, and proof of ongoing language and writing lessons. A score of 90% or better cumulative would be required for citizenship, or out they go!
I don't know why these people bother going to America anyway - If they are patient all things that make America great will come to them!
Hasn't Mexico got a legal claim to govern California?
I agree completely. If people can’t speak the language, then how can they contribute to society? It’s unlikely they’ll be able to get a job, so they’ll have to be supported via state benefits by the rest of the mugs who go out and work for a living.
I wouldn’t move to foreign lands if I couldn’t understand the native lingo, and it makes me feel ill when I see Government forms offering a translation service to those unable to speak in English. What really makes me want to be violently sick is despite the lack of communication skills, these people still seem to get by enough to claim all their free allowances from the system.
I say ship out anyone unproductive, and if that makes me racist, you’d best send me a white hood for my next birthday.
I agree completely. If people can’t speak the language, then how can they contribute to society? It’s unlikely they’ll be able to get a job, so they’ll have to be supported via state benefits by the rest of the mugs who go out and work for a living.
I wouldn’t move to foreign lands if I couldn’t understand the native lingo, and it makes me feel ill when I see Government forms offering a translation service to those unable to speak in English. What really makes me want to be violently sick is despite the lack of communication skills, these people still seem to get by enough to claim all their free allowances from the system.
I say ship out anyone unproductive, and if that makes me racist, you’d best send me a white hood for my next birthday.
I'm tempted to read this as ironic but, if not, that's a pretty mucky brush you're taking to immigrants there HB. Many people come here with much more pressing concerns that the language and from the sort of background where signing up to a nightclass isn't really an option. These people should get the help they need to find their feet so that they can start to pay their way - something I'm pretty sure the majority of people would wish to do. For that reason, I think it's only right that the government offers translation services.
I've never seen anyone produce any evidence for this 'bleeding us dry' standpoint. If you can, I'd be happy to read it but, as it stands, all I see is a slur.
Posted: Mon May 14, 2007 3:57 pm Post subject: Re: Language and Immigration
THAT_GUEST wrote:
OK, so I know this is bound to get me a few hate posts, bring them on, but this issue has been getting on my nerves, severely. I think that if someone is going to relocate to a new country; for example Mexicans crossing into the US, and we are going to allow it, then they should have to have English speaking ability. Same goes for any nationality. Why should those of us that were born here have to learn everyone else's language to accomodate them?
Immigrants here in the states actually expect citizens to go learn their language.....I would say load the 747's up and send them back until they can speak English with the best!
I agree!
If your going to move to America to live the American lifestyle...
Don't do it half assed!
I agree completely. If people can’t speak the language, then how can they contribute to society? It’s unlikely they’ll be able to get a job, so they’ll have to be supported via state benefits by the rest of the mugs who go out and work for a living.
I wouldn’t move to foreign lands if I couldn’t understand the native lingo, and it makes me feel ill when I see Government forms offering a translation service to those unable to speak in English. What really makes me want to be violently sick is despite the lack of communication skills, these people still seem to get by enough to claim all their free allowances from the system.
I say ship out anyone unproductive, and if that makes me racist, you’d best send me a white hood for my next birthday.
That is totally racist and you should be ashamed of yourself for posting such things.
What you fail to understand is that the majority of people coming here, do work. They do all the dirty poorly paid jobs that the likes of our work shy youth don't want to do. Who do you think picks all the potatoes out of the ground during harvest. Who works in the warehouses ensuring your groceries are on the shelves in the supermarkets...
What must it be like to come from somewhere like Poland and have rude English people being judgemental before you even have chance to open your mouth, let alone speak theirs or your language?
Do you actually know anyone who comes from a foreign land? Have you ever tried to speak slowly so they can get a grasp of what you are saying? Have you asked them how much money they are sending home each week to their families?
What's sad is that you are so bigoted and opinionated about something that you know absolutely nothing about. I bet though, when you go abroad you expect everyone to speak and understand English.
If you think there is a drain on society and tax-payers money - I suggest you take a look a little closer to home, before you start blaming people who get off their backsides in an attempt to better themselves and provide for their families.
That is totally racist and you should be ashamed of yourself for posting such things.
I think you are being a tad harsh in your analysis - Far too strong calling it racist and as for totally - cannot agree with that. Dismissing people as racist is a fallacy when one considers the reason for their opinions!
Quote:
What you fail to understand is that the majority of people coming here, do work.
Agreed - but don't pretend that such a move is beneficial to everyone for the same reasons and by the same degree. Whether an immigrant works or not is not so important because either way there is a cost to someone - who does it matter to more if the cost is based on any social provision or whether earning potential and spending power are curtailed.
Quote:
Who works in the warehouses ensuring your groceries are on the shelves in the supermarkets...
A bit of a stereotype there?
I am British born and have worked in a warehouse - just like other Brits! Tell me is it right that immigrants should be funding those seeking to ensure that worker's wages within these industries are kept down low at a time where housing prices are mad and there isn't enough social housing?
Quote:
What must it be like to come from somewhere like Poland and have rude English people being judgemental before you even have chance to open your mouth, let alone speak theirs or your language?
Indeed - but I bet they loved the Russians!
Quote:
Have you asked them how much money they are sending home each week to their families?
Some are only able to send home £200 - which would probably be worth much more back in Poland!
Quote:
Do you actually know anyone who comes from a foreign land?
Have you ever spoken to someone from Eastern Europe about our Multi-Cultural society?
That is totally racist and you should be ashamed of yourself for posting such things.
I think you are being a tad harsh in your analysis - Far too strong calling it racist and as for totally - cannot agree with that. Dismissing people as racist is a fallacy when one considers the reason for their opinions!
Racism is, most commonly, a product of ignorance - doesn't mean it's not racism. Anyhoo...
ILWL wrote:
Quote:
What you fail to understand is that the majority of people coming here, do work.
Agreed - but don't pretend that such a move is beneficial to everyone for the same reasons and by the same degree. Whether an immigrant works or not is not so important because either way there is a cost to someone - who does it matter to more if the cost is based on any social provision or whether earning potential and spending power are curtailed.
On arrival, they do represent a fiscal loss (although potentially a cultural gain) however, if they are supported to a point where they can enter legitimate work, they will be paying taxes and shopping in their local area - surely a good thing.
ILWL wrote:
Quote:
Who works in the warehouses ensuring your groceries are on the shelves in the supermarkets...
A bit of a stereotype there?
I am British born and have worked in a warehouse - just like other Brits! Tell me is it right that immigrants should be funding those seeking to ensure that worker's wages within these industries are kept down low at a time where housing prices are mad and there isn't enough social housing?
Your personal work history isn't really the question here but I don't think anyone is saying that no exisitng British citizens work in factories. I think it is true, however, that these tasks represent more or less the only opportunity that a lot of immigrant workers can expect.
A good point as regards the unscrupulous employers however, the answer is simple - if they are not allowed to become second class citizens, they will be less likely fall prey to these individuals. Properly enforced labour regulations would give them the security to stand up for the same wages as everyone else.
That's my lot for now.
Last edited by frosty on Tue May 15, 2007 10:24 pm; edited 1 time in total
Anyone who expects to live and work in England should speak English. Even the Welsh conform to this and they are the most racist people on the planet, even within their own country.
Anyone who expects to live and work in England should speak English. Even the Welsh conform to this and they are the most racist people on the planet, even within their own country.
WHAT!!!!!! We are part of Europe. We are no longer a little island floating about on it's own.
What's the problem with people coming to the UK who don't speak English. They pick it up pretty quickly. And they work hard and contribute to society.
What you posted is like someone saying, 'you can't go to Spain on your jollies unless you can speak Spanish'. Totally stupid thing to say.
May I ask, what is it that scares you about foreign people? You do realise that the indigenous population in the UK is now just 52%. Very soon we are going to become the minority in our own country. In places like Leicester and Bradford, this is already the case.
If people like you go about with your attitudes, what happens is that all the foreign people live in the same area and resent British people. We then get a whole load of racist hate crimes and it takes decades to repair the attitudes.
Have you ever spoken to someone from Eastern Europe about our Multi-Cultural society?
Bit of an odd reply ILWL, that does not really tackle any of the issues here, instead just complicating matters further.
I know loads of girls and lads from Eastern Europe and have to say that they are OK. They work hard doing poorly paid jobs, they also play hard and drink hard and generally know how to have a good time. They have a kinda happy-go-lucky disposition which is good, seeing as they get short-shrift from most native British.
Is it these people who you fear? Or is it the asylum seekers who are here from Africa and Iraq? Again, decent people trying to do right for themselves and their families.
We have seen all this before with Black people coming here after the war and we forced them into ghettos and got the riots. Asian people with their strange religion and stranger cooking. Again, not accepting them as people and then complaining because they want to have their own places of worship and live in their own quarter. You don't mind your balti chicken every Friday night though, do you. Or a visit to the corner shop at 11 O'clock at night when you have run out of toilet-roll.
If we had been a bit more open armed about them, when we invited them to come and live here, maybe we wouldn't have all the trouble and stuff and they wouldn't feel the need to live in areas away from British people.
Do you actually know any Black people, Asian people or Eastern Europeans?
You have some peculiar ideas about people, sorry, scrub people and read races.
And that, my friend, is the nub of your argument. You don't like Eastern Europeans because they don't speak English.
Bit of an odd reply ILWL, that does not really tackle any of the issues here, instead just complicating matters further.
Perhaps a little unorthodox yes - but still relevent to the gist of the discussion. The point being that perhaps there is an assumption that immigrants will themselves be tolerant of other races - I have spoken with Eastern Europeans from the Old Soviet Union who have views which would make our Grandparents blush - I have read elsewhere of the pride of a Russian that Moscow would be the last white city in Europe. Whilst I am not intending to 'run these immigrants down' as individuals - I would say that the powers that be did not fully consider the consequences of large scale immigration to a fragile society - the manner of which is quite unprecedented!
Has it also not occured to you that the immigration debate is itself limited to (Crude) stereotypes and (Manufactured) characteristics - both of which have been employed in a manner which has encouraged racism or at least ill feeling. Make no mistake about this; it has happened - you will be at least aware of one way - the other is this negative stereotype of the idle Brit (You would think this includes Black and Asians etc) - Has it occured to you that this may well make your friendly immigrant have a superiority complex themselves?
It is ironic that immigration is now justified as being mere natural selection - 'survival of the fittest' is one my personal favourites. Personally it blows my mind when I consider the mindset of the people who will tell people this - whilst in another breath imploring them to love thy neighbour!
To put it another way imagine one voice saying: look at these people they are in natural competition with you for the scraps we will decide to throw your way! At the moment we appreciate their efforts - more than yours - but you must love them all the same!
Now I am not saying this is all calculated - but the convenience of all the mixed messages is clear if the motivation was to divide and rule! Could be useful perhaps - if for example you didn't want immigrant and Brit to unite into a union!
Before anyone picks this argument to pieces - please have a look at your history and see how thoeries of natural selection were used to justify tyranny whilst encouraging and establishing racial prejudices.
Please ask yourself - what kind of fresh tyranny will develop out of this egg!
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